Moose were one of the most underrated bands of the 90s. Their initial lineup consisted of guitarist and songwriter K.J. “Moose” McKillop, singer and guitarist Russell Yates, and they would later be joined by bassist Lincoln Fong, guitarist Russell Fong, and drummer Richard Thomas, who would later be replaced by Mig Moorland. Formed in 1990, their initial three EPs, Jack, Cool Breeze and Reprise (all 1991) came out on Hut Records, Virgin’s indie subsidiary, and established them as key players in the shoegaze scene. In fact, the term “shoegaze” was even coined by a snotty journalist to describe an early Moose gig, where Russell Yates was looking at his sheets of lyrics stuck to the floor instead of making eye contact with the audience. Moose’s sound soon evolved beyond shoegaze, and their debut album …XYZ (1992) is a beautiful, lush album that mixes country influences, orchestral string sections and exquisite songwriting with vapour trail guitar noise.
Moose were then dropped from Hut, releasing the equally wonderful Honey Bee (1993) and Live A Little Love A Lot (1995) on Play It Again Sam, before going into hiatus. Their final album, High Ball Me!, taps into the same well of brilliant songwriting and gorgeous yet eccentric arrangements as their previous albums, but was not released until 2000, by which time Moose were essentially defunct. Moose McKillop, the sonic genius behind Moose the band, essentially retired from music until forming Piroshka with his partner Miki Berenyi in 2018, and then joining her in the Miki Berenyi Trio. Moose McKillop was kind enough to speak to OUTSIDELEFT over Zoom about Moose’s musical legacy, and his return to making music and playing live.
OUTSIDELEFT: To start us off, it’s been 25 years since the last Moose album, High Ball Me!, came out…
MOOSE McKILLOP: Yeah, it must be, and it was probably recorded three years before it was released. I think it might have been recorded in 96 and 97 if memory serves. So it's even, it's even older than the release date!
OL So how do you feel about those records, looking back with 30 years’ hindsight?
MM: It's funny, we were doing an interview recently, and some guy said, pick a favourite Moose track from back in the day, and I'm not gonna lie, I really struggled. Because when I listen, all I can hear is how I would or should have recorded some of these songs. We spent a lot of time, how can I put it, over egging the cake? I've had this conversation before with people, and they say, no, but that's what's nice about it. But a lot of the songs, they're quite dense, and there's layers and layers and layers of things. And when I was listening back, only a couple of weeks ago, I was thinking, oh, why did why did we make everything so rich, but not in a good way! It's just sometimes the songs could have benefited with a bit more space. But I was always happy with the tunes and everything like that. Just that there was just sometimes listening to them, they can be a bit much!
OL: Yeah, that's funny, because that is one of the things that's kind of nice about those records, and it gives them their distinctive sounds. Because it was at a time when noisy guitar rock was the norm. So to have these records with country instrumentation and sweeping strings, it really makes them stand out from their contemporaries.
MM: Yeah. The thing is, I was kind of listening to everything the other week with an eye to just picking one song. But to be honest, I haven't actually sat down and listened to them like, listened, listened. But then I think there's a lot of people don't listen to their own music. You know there are other things, better things out there! I think it can be a bit odd if you keep going back and listening to your to your own records, I find it a bit indulgent. You know what I mean?
I go to a lot of gigs, listen to a lot of new music. And you know that there's always so much to discover out there.
OL: Yeah, that makes sense.
MM: Well especially as I do like trying to find new things. I always have done. I go to a lot of gigs, listen to a lot of new music. And you know that there's always so much to discover out there. Just literally every year, something comes along, another band, another album that you hear, you think that's just amazing, that people are still making brilliant records like that.
OL: No, for sure! And to deal with the elephant in the room early on, shoegaze was a term that was coined in a review of a Moose gig, and has since become this genre label that you guys kind of got stuck with, despite moving away from that sound pretty early on. And now, 30 years later, it's having its own sort of resurgence. What are your feelings about that label and that music now that we've been through all that with it?
MM: Yeah, it's funny, because you're right, it was a term of abuse. It was a way of taking the piss. And then I think it would have been probably in the early 2000s or late 2000s, someone got in touch and was saying, oh, there's a band that have covered one of your songs, an American band, they're really young, and they're part of this movement called nu gaze. And I thought, what? And I can't remember the last time anybody used that term, but shoegaze suddenly became just a cool thing to be, and you start to see when albums are being described, they'd say, oh it’s like dance meets Hip Hop meets shoegaze, or shoegaze meets metal, or metal shoegaze, and you think, wow. That term has come a long way. I mean, it's funny, because doing stuff with Miki and Ollie, with the new album, it'll be unavoidable if and when people start writing about the record that that that term is just going to come up. I mean, I'm alright about it. I think it's quite funny. We had this interview recently where I mentioned that, a band like Slowdive, for example, In that period of early 90s, they were treated really harshly by the music papers. Some of the stuff was really horrible and personal and spiteful. And it's almost like 30 years later, the revenge of the nerds. Now they’re much bigger than they ever were, they're almost like the acme, if you say shoegaze, people will say Slowdive. And I'm really, I'm pleased for them, because they're very nice people. And for them to have kind of kept going, I know they had other things intermittently, there were other bands, Mojave 3 and all of that. But the idea that they are now probably 20 times bigger than they ever were, I think it's quite funny. It's almost like they've completely owned the word. It’s really good.
OL: If you think about UK underground bands at that time, most people now think of shoegaze, but of course you had bands like Stereolab and Th’ Faith Healers who were doing something quite sonically different. So with Moose evolving to a different sound after the early Eps, was that less of a surprising move at the time than we might think looking back?
MM: Yeah. I mean, it just seemed perfectly normal for us. We recorded those first few EPS relatively quickly and cheaply. And then when we got to make the first album, there was a little bit more money, so we were able to get string sections. And also, we weren't really bothered about how it was going to sound live. So the first few EPs captured, pretty much, what it was like for us to play those songs live. But with the album, we just thought, let's just not worry about playing live. Maybe we'll never get to play live again. So let's just make a record that we're not even considering touring! I mean, we did, obviously, go out and play live. But the album was just a bit more ambitious, because there was time, money. The focus was all on, on the record, to be honest.
OL: And did that later cause problems when you had to play those songs live?
MM: To a certain extent. There were some songs that we tried then we thought, actually, it just doesn't work. We had plenty of material, so we didn't have to play the whole album. And also, the second album, Honey Bee, that that came really quickly afterwards. You know, we, we got dropped by Hut Records only a matter of two or three months after the album came out. It was really quick. We'd done a little bit of touring for it, it wasn't extensive. Then we were dropped, and we were literally straight into studio because we'd already started writing the next record. So, so I think almost within a few months, we were actually recording Honey Bee. We did a few gigs that spring and summer, but not a tour. And so 12 months later, the second album came out. And then when we toured that, we had so much material to choose from. I think we mostly played stuff from Honey Bee, if I remember rightly.
OL: Looking back, it’s quite a compressed period from the first album to Honey Bee…
MM: I think we started playing live in 1990 and it was autumn 92 that the first album came out. And I think 95 the third album came out. And even then, like I say, I think we were already writing the fourth album then. Because we didn't tour the third album. I think we did three gigs in France, and that was it.We didn't do any shows for it. In fact, if you think about it, we actually recorded four albums in about four or five years. It was quite a prolific period, without doing an awful lot of gigging, to be honest. We went to America once, we never really got our records released there properly. A lot of our contemporaries, like Lush, for example, they were going back and forth to promote and they worked really, really hard. Not just them. Lots of bands were spending anywhere between three and eight months of the year in America trying to break it, as they say, trying to get bigger and bigger. But we never had that sort of slightly onerous task on our on our backs. Our records were just never released in American really. So we never got to go. Just the once.
OL: It sounds like the music side of it all came really quickly and easily. Did it start with just you and Russell Yates putting the songs together yourself?
MM: It started off like that. But most of the first album, in fact, and all the subsequent albums I pretty much wrote on my own. I just took over the songwriting. I mean, it was quite a prolific period for me. So I was just able to do it, and Russell was fine with it. And plus, whichever studio we worked in, the people that we worked with were always good, that guys either engineered or produced it. And we were all at the time mostly in London, and living close to each other. It just wasn't difficult. It was quite an easy process, to be honest. It just seemed perfectly normal. And I think our rationale was that that back in the back in the 1960s some bands were releasing two albums a year. You might get two Kinks albums in in one year so. But obviously, the shape of the music industry was completely different. Then, in the 90s, you're expected to make an album last a year and a half, two years, while you milked it for all you all you could, and toured it for all you could, and three, sometimes four singles would be released off an album. But that just didn't happen. I think there are certain albums that we released that didn't even have any singles released on them, it was just the album came out. It's odd, when you think about it like that. I'm trying to remember at the time whether we would have liked to have gone to America. Maybe we would have liked to have gone to America a bit more and had a go. But it wasn't the be all and end all. It was almost like the process itself was the most important thing. Just being able to do it. Plus, we all really, especially me, just loved being in studio. I was happier there than anywhere else.
OL: And they are such joyous records. You can tell listening to them that they luxuriate in that sound. It's really nice. But I guess the part of it that wasn't so easy was the record label support, which just looks like you never had. Because Lush had 4AD, and I know there were tensions along the way, but they were mostly supportive of the band, whereas Moose wound up releasing four albums over almost as many record labels….
MM: Yeah, absolutely. The first album, it was one of those really weird periods when it came out, because Virgin had just been bought by EMI. It was one of those, slash the roster, and dozens of bands got dropped. And I suppose the first album …XYZ , by contemporary standards, it didn't cost that much. But it wasn't cheap. We where we did have lots of time, and we were able to get string sections and brass sections. So it wasn't a budget record, and we knew that that Virgin had been told to make sure that they cut their costs. And I think the next option for us to be picked up by the Hut Virgin for the second Moose album was that there was a big advance involved in that, or a bigger budget for the recording of the album. And so they looked at that and thought, we have, we have to drop you. We cannot afford to give you what is the second phase of a five album deal. And so off we went to Play It Again Sam, and did a couple of albums with them.There was always something very distant about them, the fact that they are based in Brussels. We went over a few times. There were phone calls. But there was no hanging out in the office kind of thing, which you could do if you're on 4AD. You could pop along and just sit and have a coffee. But no, there was so there was already this geographical distance, which, you know, manifested itself in what I felt like was a coldness between us and them. They weren't the most communicative bunch of people, although we did meet some nice people that worked at the label. But yeah, that was tricky. And then I think the fourth album came out on an American label, but then our own label here. I can't remember, actually, Russell kind of organised all of that. I remember thinking that that album would probably never see the light of day. And then he said, oh, I've sorted out a deal for it. So, you know, it came out, High Ball Me! But yeah, you're right. We never had that special connection with a label at all. Even the guy that signed us to Hut, the guy that initially was running Hut Records, he left. So there was one relationship gone straight away. It's funny that we never managed to get that because we were actually quite co-operative, as a band. We weren't hard to deal with. We were pretty friendly, affable chaps who just wanted to get on with it. So I don't think we were in any way difficult. I know people often blame bad luck for things. But there was an element of bad luck there! We possibly would have been better off on another label.
OL: Yeah. You listen to the records now and you think, four albums that good that the label didn’t do any promotion for at all, it’s wild!
MM: Yeah, I mean, we signed to Play It Again Sam. We'd put out an EP on our own label, and it attracted their publishing company, a guy called Peter Kent, who initially set up for 4AD with Ivo, and then he went off and set up Situation Two Records, and he was working as the early 90s, running the publishing side of Play It Again Sam, so he wanted to sign us. And he said it would be really convenient if you actually just signed to the label as well, not just publishing, but to put the records out with Play It Again Sam. The plan had been to continue on our own label. And we were slightly warned, I can't remember by whom, who said, be careful with Play It Again Sam. They don't always give you the kind of support you need, and I think they made a reference to New Fast Automatic Daffodils, New Fads, who were a band that signed to Play It Again Sam and kind of disappeared and. And it was kind of like, be careful, don't end up in their situation, and then we ended up in their situation. We didn't heed the warnings, really!
OL: I'm going to ask you a technical songwriting question now. The one thing you’re not meant to do on your records is whistle. And yet you get away with whistling on two tracks on …XYZ and another one on Live A Little Love a Lot. And it works! So how do you take something so associated with cheesiness and make it work?
MM: I know! It was the idea that whistling crops up on old country records and old 60s ballads. It's kind of like this almost melancholic, sentimental sound. And I've just always liked it and, and so that was it. I think there's might be three songs where there's some whistling. We didn't even think twice about whether it was cool or funny. Honestly, there was something just really honest about, we like whistling on old country songs, so let's do it.
OL: I guess it's the same with the string sections as well, which is something that can come across as overly sugary or sentimental on some records, but the enthusiasm for it shines through.
MM: Yeah. I think so. I think it's because we genuinely love those records that have those big ballads, whether it's Scott Walker records or Forever Changes by Love, Gene Clark records. Just loved the arrangements on them. And you know, you don't have to use strings. You can find other ways of doing it. But like I say, for the first album we did have a bit of a budget. There was money available that we could pay session musicians to come in. To have it properly scored. Me and Mitch [Easter, producer], we went to this guy's house. He was an arranger who arranged strings for bands, and we sat with him one day with a piano and a guitar and decided on the songs where we were going to have strings. And he sat down and we were playing him things on the guitar and singing him things. And he was scoring it all and then suggesting things, and then the next thing you know, here is the printout of the sheet music for the string section! So we were able to go back into the studio the next day. Even things like that are really just brilliant fun. Quite exciting at the time.
OL: I guess that’s one of the fun bits of playing around in the studios, with the collaborative aspect of something that you wouldn't necessarily be able to do yourself….
MM: Yeah. But I do remember there was one funny thing when we got back. On the first album, there were five songs that had strings, but there was going to be another one, which we sat and did with this guy. And we were going through them, and I can't remember the name of the song, but we came to record it, and then Mitch was producing it, and the strings come in, and It was just completely awful. And was like, whoa, there must be some mistake here. And it was like, no, it's this, is it? They were all looking at their music. It's like, okay, let's go again. And it was so discordant, and not even in a kind of an avant garde interesting way. It was just wrong. Fucking horribly wrong! So the person that arranged it wasn't there because we'd gone to his house, but one of the musicians came out into the room and was looking at the guitar chords that we were playing and going, no no no, this is all completely wrong, it should all be moved down about three notes. We said, well, can you do that? Well, it'll take time, so we just scrapped the whole thing. But it was just almost like a comedy moment, it was that bad. It was like Les Dawson playing the piano or something. It was just horrible, horrible. But the overall experience of recording that first album was just really good fun. It was lovely working with Mitch. He's a really sweet person.
until Piroshka formed, which was about 2018. And, yeah, I hadn't picked up a guitar for 10 years. I just didn't have time.
OL: Since the end of Moose, you've played in Piroshka and now in the Miki Berenyi Trio. How have you found that as different from working with Moose?
MM: It's been very different in the sense that I had a long gap of not doing anything. I did a bit of noodling here, did a little bit of music for a short film. Really, I'd done next to nothing for a long time, until Piroshka formed, which was about 2018. And, yeah, I hadn't picked up a guitar for 10 years. I just didn't have time. I didn't have the inclination. I was happy to go and see bands and whatever. But for me, I thought that was all in the past. But it's very different, just because you're so much older, and your take on the world is completely different. You've moved on, you've got kids, and it's also different in in the sense that the music industry has changed so much anyway. Most people I know that are in bands are like me, they’ve still got jobs. I'm going to go work this afternoon. Bands that are at our level, we can't afford to quit our jobs. We, we break even, we make enough money to keep going. Which is absolutely fine, I'm not in it for any other reason than just having fun again. That has been the best thing, really, me and Miki and Ollie, the three of us. We've got quite a neat little operation. We just pile everything into a car. We don't have a drummer, we don't have a lighting guy. We don't have a woman doing sound or anything like that. It’s just the three of us. Miki sells a few T shirts and then we pile into the car and come home or go to the hotel. It's harder work because there's no roadies or drivers or whatever. And that's more difficult when you're in your 60s, compared to when you're in your 20s, obviously. But I'm definitely enjoying it more, because it is just pure enjoyment. You might get the odd long drive, you wake up in, you wake up in Edinburgh, and you know that your next gig is in Birmingham, you got some hours to put in on the road, but put the radio on, have a bar of chocolate next to you, it’s fine.OL: And now for the awkward but inevitable question – are the Moose albums ever likely to see a reissue?
MM: Well, that might still happen. It was being organized, and then it's kind of been on the back burner. But I think so, yeah, it looks like there's a chance that they could all come out together in a in a box set. It's all about the costing of whether we do a vinyl one, or just CD. And personally, I'd love it to be both, but it's a real gamble to put out a box set of Moose albums. We have looked into it. With all the singles and the B sides and the four proper studio albums, you know, you're looking at this being a six or seven album box set, and that's not going to be cheap. And then you'd have to think, well, is it worth it for the record label to do that? But you know, it could happen. It should happen.
OL: I would love that, because it would be great to have them in print again. And just, selfishly, I have …XYZ on vinyl and I have the EPS, but that's it. Because, you never see Honey Bee in the shops or anything.
MM: No, that's true.
OL: And the last two albums didn't even get issued on vinyl!
MM: No. There weren't vinyl versions of the third and fourth albums. Yeah, I know. And then at the time vinyl was dying on its arse, yeah,
OL: Yeah, no one was buying it and no one was making it!
MM: There's a resurrection that nobody could have predicted. It’s bizarre, you know.
OL: The other inevitable question – is a Moose reunion ever likely to happen?
MM: Oh, I can definitely say that it won't happen. I know that, you've got Mig [Moorland], the drummer that was there for the latter half of the band, he's busy with what he's doing, the original drummer, Richie [Thomas], he lives in Croatia. Russell [Yates], the singer, lives in Portugal. Russell [Fong], the other guitarist, lives in San Francisco. Me and Lincoln [Fong] are in London, but I mean even getting everybody to say yes, when I know that there are people that are just not interested in doing it anymore. It's kind of like that that was then. And then, even if everybody said yes, Jesus, I just don't know how we would do it, it would have to be so coordinated. It'd have to be like a proper military operation. I mean, it would be lovely, and I personally wouldn't be against it. But then I've got this. And also, this will take up most of the year. And over the summer, with a bit of luck, and maybe actually in the coming month, we're going to start recording some new songs. So the idea is to have to have the bulk of the next album ready one way or another by the end of the year. Maybe not all the songs written, but most of what we've most of what will be written, will be recorded, so that we can just get it mixed. So I think that's kind of the plan, that the next MB3 album will be the priority.
OL: Thank you so much for speaking with us!
